Dredging misinformation

[RKC]

G'day,

Members might like to keep a watch on this thread
forums.paydirt.co.nz/yaf_postsm536_Seeking-Permission-from-Land-Owners.aspx#post536
as the misinformation being posted could could have disastrous consequences for dredgers if they attempt to lobby government as they are proposing. They have a lack of even rudimentary knowledge of dredging and know nothing of the dredging laws already in place.

It concerns me, as it should any Kiwi dredgers, because they have already made an attempt to lobby government by writing the the Minister for Mines. They are somehow under the impression that gold cannot be sold and they think they need to lobby government to correct a problem that does not exist.

There was a great deal of hard work done by Kiwi dredgers back in the 90s to have the regs improved and if such extremely inexperience fossickers get involved it could effect the few good regulations we have at present (for example, 6" dredgers and smaller do not require a Resource Consent in Otago).

Regards,
Rob (RKC)

[GeoffS]

Rob and all forum members

This misinformation posted by well intentioned but underinformed prospectors needs to be corrected immediately . They are going off half ****ed and trying to fight a battle that has already been fought and won –mostly by you Rob so now is the time to post a well written and informed statement of facts . Like all of you I don`t like being a criminal every time I venture out into the gold fields of NZ so a Miners Right is long overdue.
For a template of what a Miners Right is see the Victorian model which was fought for at Eureka Stockade in 1854 and more recently by the PMAV earlier this year when there was a serious threat by government to remove it as part of the proposed amendments to the MRD act 1990. We (the PMAV ) jumped on that idea hard and persuaded government that this was not a good idea-we won and now the amended proposal is to extend it to be a 10 year Miners Right not a two year as it is at present-quite a victory and achieved without the bloodshed of the 1854 victory.

I have implored members of this forum before to form a prospectors organisation to lobby your government on matters such as this and if ever there was a need for such an organisation now is that time . Rob -you are well respected by all so now is the time for action.
If you need any help in how to set up and run a prospectors and small miners association I and the PMAV (Prospectors and Miners Association of Victoria inc.) will help in any way we can see www.pmav.org.au .

Geoff Strang
Treasurer and Public Officer of the PMAV Inc.

[aucn]

spot on geoff,

ken

[RKC]

G'day Geoff and aucn,

Its entirely up to the fossickers themselves to form an association. A New Zealand fossickers Association is long overdue and I would have thought that the best way for it to have come about would have been through a fossickers Internet forum where the issues could have been discused before taking the next step to officially form an organisation, like the PMAV in Victoria. I'm actually very surprised one has not arisen long before this. The reintroduction of a Miners Right is certainly something to be aimed for and is no doubt something that would be supported by all Kiwi fossickers. Probably the best way to go would be for some experienced known fossickers to form a fossickers Internet forum, and thrash it out there among the members to find out what most fossickers think. Such a forum would also be useful to correct the mistakes being made on the Paydirt forum ... before they cause too much lasting damage (however, there are a few new posters on the Paydirt forum who actually know something about dredging, and hopefully they will correct the previous posters who are making the mistakes). If there is not the will to form a new Internet forum then there certainly would not be the will to form a formal association (with all that involves). And then fossickers will be stuck with the Paydirt forum! I would be willing to give advise to anyone who wants to form a new forum by explaining the mechanics of it and how to have it run smoothly.

There is no doubt that there is a boom in fossicking here in New Zealand at present that has not been seen since the early 1980s and which could be an even bigger boom than back then. And there are a lot of young Kiwis who want to take up the hobby, who need good advise without any BS. I have always said that New Zealand is a fossickers paradise with a wealth of opportunity's that don’t exist in any other country. Here a hobby fossicker can go bush himself to easily get enough gold to keep any fossicker happy, without having to go to the pay-to-mine commercial enterprises that they have to in places like Alaska (although we are seeing a few of those arising here ... to cater for overseas tourists).


Regards,
Rob (RKC)

[RKC]

G'day,

BTW there is another Kiwi fossickers forum, if anyone knows of any more please post the link here
www.goldminingcommunity.com/

Regards,
Rob (RKC)

[GeoffS]

Rob and all

Over the ditch we have had endless debate about the language we use and came to the conclusion that the word "fossicker" was inappropriate and we use the words "prospector" and "miner" or "small scale miners" .
Fossicking has more meanings than just searching for minerals and has a "cottage industry" feel about it which we felt didn`t truly reflect prospecting for gold and/or other minerals. If you want to get the ear of government you need to present as serious and I don`t think fossicking is the right word and don`t forget that most of the big gold deposits found in Australia have been found by prospectors (never fossickers) in spite of what the glossy reports from 100s of mining companies drivel on about.

Cheers in prospecting (or dredging or mining)

Geoff

[RKC]

G'day Geoff,

I take your point and understand where you are coming from... however I find the use of the word fossicker personally useful so as to distinguish full-time miners, such as myself, from the hobby (fossickers) miners. The word I've used on this forum to distinguish professional dredgers as compared to hobby dredgers is, to call the pros 'serious' miners ... which is a clumsy word to use but it has served its purpose and I've never been able to decide on a suitable alternative (despite trying hard).

When it has come to dealing with government in New Zealand I have always believed that it is extremely important to distinguish the serious dredgers from the hobbyists. And the regulations we have now, reflect this (thankfully). There is and has been some illinformed hostility from hobbyists toward the full time dredgers and equally there has been hostility from the pros toward the hobbyists.

The major problem the pros have had with the hobbyists has been poaching (Paul has probably told you some of the problems he has had on his Mining Permit with hobbyists and some can be extremely difficult to confront and who will not move on when told to do so).

The problem with dredgers lobbying government in New Zealand can be that they can be easily made to believe that they are providing for all dredgers if they give in to the requirements of the hobbyists. But what happily satisfies hobbyists would never provide enough to allow a pro to make a living (dredge size for example).

There was an intense debate among Kiwi dredgers back in the early 90s when the Otago Regional Council were deciding on how to best distinguish recreational dredging from professional dredging. Some dredgers wanted the motor size to be the distinguishing means, with recreational dredgers permitted to use dredges with motors up to 5hp and no larger. This would have been a disaster and I made a submission that suction hose diameter be the means of classifying, with dredges up to and including 6" be allowed as recreational (which means a 6" dredge can presently be used on a Mining Permit without the need to apply for a Resource Consent). And thats what the regs are at present (again ... thankfully).

A A letter to the Department of Conservation, West Coast 11-02-10
www.findgoldnz.com/goldnews.html

Regards,
Rob (RKC)

[criticol]

Hi fellow “Raw” gold finders.
Greetings from New Zealand.

My name is Colin, and I presume that I am the one that you wish to tear a strip off for posting all that “Misinformation”? On the N.Z. Fossicking forum?

(RKC,) Rob.
You say that we do not even have a rudimentary knowledge of dredging, or of the dredging laws that are already in place. You could be correct! However, were pretty well informed anyway, as we too can read.
You also say that we are somehow under the impression that any “Raw” gold found cannot be sold. If that is so, then you may be able to correctly give me an answer to the below, shall I say, uncertainty of fact!
(In addition, please note, that I do not mean any offence to anyone with my posts)

(?) It is still my understanding that a person cannot legally “Sell” any "Raw" gold found anywhere else in N.Z. “Unless” it has been obtained from a “Legally” registered Mining claim, or alternatively, from a designated Government controlled “Public” fossicking area.
If anyone else feels that, they may have the correct answer to the above understanding.
“Please” feel free to post a reply!

You also say that things may get rather stuffed up for you, “if such extremely inexperience fossickers get involved.” (As quoted above, we too can read, and a lot of us are anything but inexperienced.

Then you give us a bit of “Kudos” by saying:
“It’s entirely up to the fossickers themselves to form an association. A New Zealand fossickers Association is long overdue the reintroduction of a Miners Right is certainly something to be aimed for and is no doubt something that would be supported by all Kiwi fossickers. Such a forum would also be useful to correct the mistakes being made on the Paydirt forum ... before they cause too much lasting damage.”

Please humor my ignorance by explaining what mistakes we are making, plus an explanation of the lasting damage that may be caused.
The” Paydirt” forum may not be an association such as you refer to, but its certainly good enough to accept comment from members that will help in requesting ( I hate the word Lobbying, as were not trying to influence anybody.) some minor changes from our Government, to soften the regulations now in place that stifle our “Fossicking” hobby. In addition, I see no harm in our membership of fossickers being: “Stuck” with the Paydirt forum! Where many “Kiwis” who want to take up the hobby, should get good advice without any BS.

Then you mention--“however I find the use of the word fossicker personally useful so as to distinguish full-time miners, such as myself.”
Adding to this again, these comments:

“When it has come to dealing with government in New Zealand I have always believed that it is extremely important to distinguish the serious dredgers from the hobbyists.”
“ The problem with dredgers lobbying government in New Zealand can be that they can be easily made to believe that they are providing for all dredgers if they give in to the requirements of the hobbyists. But what happily satisfies hobbyists would never provide enough to allow a pro to make a living (dredge size for example).”
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Then Geoff mentions:
This misinformation posted by well intentioned but under informed prospectors needs to be corrected immediately. They are going off half ****ed and trying to fight a battle that has already been fought and won.

To This I add, “That just maybe you yourselves are jumping the gun.”

Hi Geoff.
I presume that you can explain just what this misinformation is. Moreover, how it needs to be corrected.
Were not trying to fight a battle that has already been won.
We just do not see any benefits for our “Fossicking” hobby that were won in that battle.

Cheers and all Regards---Colin.

P.S. Rob,--Geoff, “Please” understand that I am not aiming to start a Slagging match by any stretch of anybody’s imagination.
I am just trying to get some clarifications to hopefully resolve these matters, as the postings on the “Paydirt forums” seem to have ruffled some feathers.

[RKC]

G'day Colin,

Others can judge if you are fit to represent Kiwi fossickers. I've come to my own conclusions about you after having a look at your web site
homepages.ihug.co.nz/~criticol/index.html.htm


Regards,
Rob (RKC)

[boaraxa]

lol thats it.....im joining the paydirt forum those fellas can make ther own gold over there...
p.s any one got a spear 1K.....? ;D

[criticol]

Hi Rob.

What a pity that you have failed to clarify your previous remarks ? which sort of pointed to our forum being full of a bunch of no brained idiots.
If you elect to, we should still love to know your reasons for them? Or would this be below your intellectual status?

You are entitled to form your opinion of me from my websites content if you wish to, I have no problem with that, except to say, “Thanks” for advertising it on your site, it could bring in some business too.

I am most deflated by your non-conformity to our very reasonable requests.

I am sure that all your other members will take notice that you have failed miserably to take up the cudgel in their defense. (Shame) J

Most respectful Regards---Colin.


Hi Goldtimer.
Didn’t I just call you a “Hero” ?
Yes, my site is “No Joke”, and yes it is “Serious”.
Why don’t you give it a whirl ? If your skeptical.

Regards---Colin.

[criticol]

Hi Goldtimer.

The "Misinformation" you are refering to regarding the subject of "Dredging misinformation" has nothing at all to do with my websites content!

In fact, it seems to have been used as a convienient excuse to not answer the questions posed to your administrator by me.

Cheers---Colin.

[goldtimer]

G'day Colin, I've removed my other posts on this thread. After re-reading your comments I realise, No, whatever you write on your website does not really have anything to do with getting these laws changed, and I'm sorry if my comments about your site have caused any offence.
GT